Much of modern evangelicalism seems to be fixated upon the idea that we can only progress as individual Christians and the church if we are pursing a dream or vision. This tendency is epitomized in these two claims:
Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming. What we need today are great dreamers.
Those words occur not on the website of some ‘best-life-now’ life coach, but, rather surprisingly, in a post over at the Desiring God website:
There we are given the command to ‘Let God stretch your imagination’ and told that ‘Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming. What we need today are great dreamers.’
Now, where exactly does the Bible teach any of this?
Ah, I see we are helpfully given two Scriptures. Let’s look at those.
Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:8)
Actually, that’s Proverbs 29:18, not 29:8. But, no matter. It’s easy to make a harmless mistake like that.
But there’s another, more serious, problem.
Proverbs 29:18 does not teach that ‘what we need today are great dreamers’.
Here’s a more accurate translation, with the second half of the verse included:
Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint;
But happy is he who keeps the law.’ (Proverbs 29:18, NKJV)
That’s better. It is now plain that this verse talks neither about our dreams and hopes for the future, nor of some leader’s ‘vision’ for a better tomorrow.
No. Rather, it refers to prophetic revelation from God.
And specifically, as is made clear by the second half of the verse, it is referring to the revelation of God’s Law (torah), which of course we have in the Scriptures by the prophets.
Here’s a tiny snippet about this verse from a reputable commentary:
[Janzen] adds: “The conviction in Prov. 29:18a semantically and syntactically parallels that in Prov. 11:14a, ‘Where there is no guidance (tahbūlôt), a people falls.’ There can be no doubt that tahbūlôt refers to the guiding power of wisdom received from God (cp. Prov. 1:1–7), and as such is generically synonymous with tôrâ (“teaching”). Anyone capable of holding the conviction expressed in xi 14a is capable of holding that ‘where there is no vision the people fall into anarchy.’ ” In sum, hāzôn [‘revelation’] refers here to the sage’s inspired revelation of wisdom.
Waltke, B. K. (2005). The Book of Proverbs. Chapters 15-31. The New International Commentary on the Old Testament (p. 446).
What Proverbs 29:18 says about this revealed Law is that, without it, people will ‘run wild’ (as HALOT succinctly puts it).
In other words, this verse teaches us that God’s Law acts as a curb on the base instincts and desires of our sinful nature.
This understanding is exactly in keeping with orthodox Christian doctrine, and is what Lutherans call the ‘first use of the Law’:
…the Law was given to men for three reasons:
- first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars];
- secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins;
- thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life…
Proverbs 29:18 thus has nothing to do with letting ‘God stretch your imagination’, or our need for ‘great dreamers’, but rather with one beneficial use of the revelation given by God through His prophets.
The second Scripture mentioned is this:
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. (Acts 2:17, NIV)
Now, remember, this Scripture is being cited in support of our need to let God to ‘stretch [our] imagination’ and the claim that ‘nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming’. But, again, it is immediately clear (even in the translation quoted) that this verse teaches nothing of the sort.
Rather, what it does teach is that in the last days, God will pour out His Holy Spirit on ‘all people’ with the effect that sons and daughters will prophesy, young men will ‘see visions’, and old men will ‘dream dreams’.
The talk of visions and dreams is really an elaboration and repetition of the prior reference to prophecy, as is clear when we remember God’s rebuke of Aaron and Miriam for their criticism of Moses:
Then the LORD came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. Then He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”So the anger of the LORD was aroused against them, and He departed.
Numbers 12:5–9, NKJV
We see from this encounter that the normal way for God to communicate with his prophets was in a vision and a dream. Moses was an exception, since God spoke with Him face to face.
R. C. H. Lenski summarizes the meaning of Acts 2:17 very well in his commentary, The Interpretation of the Acts of the Apostles (pp. 74–75):
The chief effect of the Spirit’s activity is always prophesying, not in the narrow sense of foretelling future events, but in the broad and far more important sense of voicing the saving and blessed will of God to men everywhere. In 1 Cor. 14 Paul speaks of this as the best and highest gift of the Spirit; and Luther writes: “What are all other gifts together compared to this gift, that the Spirit of God himself, the eternal God, comes down into our hearts, yea, into our bodies and dwells in us, rules, guides, leads us! Thus now, as concerning this passage of the prophet, prophesying, visions, dreams are all one thing, namely the knowledge of God through Christ, which the Holy Spirit kindles and makes to burn through the Word of the gospel.” The fact that Luther is correct is shown by Peter when in v. 18 he adds to both the Hebrew and the LXX texts: “and they shall prophesy.” This is interpretative and repeats “they shall prophesy” from v. 17.
“Your sons and your daughters” is amplified by “your young men” and “your old men,” the possessives referring to the Jews to whom the Spirit first came through the apostles. The three lines of Hebrew poetry are parallel and synonymous statements, which means that all the predicates belong to all the subjects, sons, daughters, young men, old men. So the three predicates form a unit, each predicate saying the same thing with variation, as each subject is only a variation. All shall prophesy, confess, and tell the gospel, and thus the young men shall see glorious visions of its progress and its victories, and the old men shall dream dreams of its blessedness and its power, literally: “dream with dreams,” a Hebraism in the translation and not a case of a Greek cognate object.
Thus, the prophecy, visions and dreams of Acts 2:17 are all referring to, as Luther puts it, ‘the knowledge of God through Christ, which the Holy Spirit kindles and makes to burn through the Word of the gospel’. Yet this verse is cited in support of a very different kind of vision and dream, namely our hopes and plans for the future. Were those hopes and dreams tied specifically to the outworking of the Word of the Gospel, we might yet have accepted this as a valid interpretation. But no, the application is universal: ‘Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming’.
Can you see what a terrible and Satanic twisting of Scripture has occurred in the way that both Proverbs 29:18 and Acts 2:17 have been abused?
We use the same English word ‘dream’ for the thoughts, images and sensations we have when we are asleep, and also for our own hopes and aspirations for the future. Yet the two are entirely distinct concepts. Likewise, we use the word ‘vision’ to refer both to a direct revelatory encounter with God, and also for our ideas of what the future could be like and our plans for achieving our goals. Again, these two meanings are totally different.
Passages referring to prophetic revelation given directly by God, and to the knowledge of God through Christ, have thus been misused and misapplied as if they were about our own hopes, ideas and plans for the future. Two completely unrelated concepts – ‘revelation from God’ and ‘our hopes for the future’ – have been exchanged by a sleight of hand, and an entire doctrine concerning the latter built upon a demonstrably false reading of the Scriptures.
Notice too that the revelation of Proverbs 29:18 and prophecy of Acts 2:17 both have their origin in God and His Word. They are given at His initiative, and their content is from Him. Yet the assertion that ‘Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming’ leaves the initiative entirely in human hands. We are further instructed that ‘What we need today are great dreamers.’ The direct implication is that unless we busy ourselves with conjuring up some grand dreams, God is unable to act. Thus a Sovereign God is made subject to the actions of mortal man. ‘Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming’ is therefore merely the expression of an aggrandizing self-idolatry – an idolatry made more egregious by its attempted justification from Scripture.
And so we have (at best) an utterly irresponsible handling of the Word of God. There is no excuse for this, as the briefest reference to any reputable commentary would dispel the notion that either of these passages is about our hopes and dreams for the future (at least, other than in so far as they are concerned with the Word of the Gospel). Nowhere does the Bible teach that ‘Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming’, and that doctrine certainly cannot be found in either Proverbs 29:18 or Acts 2:17.
I am therefore immensely disheartened to see this dross on the Desiring God website. This is not ‘doctrinal and sound’. My disappointment is heightened especially because I have favourably linked to Desiring God content in the past.
Now, in case you think these things are of no great consequence in the church, please take the time to listen to Chris Rosebrough’s review of Mark Burchell’s ‘Dream Killers’ sermon. The review starts about 59:30 into the podcast, and shows exactly the serious consequences of this kind of teaching.
Going back now and reading more carefully the The Battle for Your Mind notes, it is striking how every single point involves something we must or must not do. There is nothing about what Christ has done for us. It is pure law. There is no Gospel here at all. No Christ crucified for our sins. No Christ raised for our justification. Just things we must do. How incredibly depressing.
As an antidote to this, let me come back to a point that I made above concerning God’s rebuke of Aaron and Miriam. I wrote:
We see from this encounter that the normal way for God to communicate with his prophets was in a vision and a dream. Moses was an exception, since God spoke with Him face to face.
God’s speaking ‘face to face’ with Moses immediately reminds us of Christ, the ‘prophet like you’ that God promised Moses would one day come:
And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’—when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:17–22, NKJV)
(The prophet who presumes to speak in the name of God something that God has not command him to speak should take heed of the penalty for this sin. There are many false prophets speaking this way in the visible church today.)
Christ, of course, testified that He had seen God (face-to-face, as it were), thus declaring Himself to be the ‘prophet like you’ that God promised to Moses. But look at the context of that claim:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws [drags] him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
John 6:44–60, NKJV
Jesus is saying here not only that He has seen the Father, and that He was sent from God, but also that He is the fulfilment of Isaiah’s prophecy that ‘they shall all be taught by God’ (Is. 54:13). Jesus thus asserts Himself to be the very God of the Hebrew Scriptures. The God who once spoke by His prophets now speaks directly to His people.
The writer to the Hebrews puts it like this:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb. 1:1–4, NKJV)
And what does the Son of God say?
This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. (John 6:50–51, NKJV)
Christ says of Himself that He is the bread that comes down from heaven, that we may eat of Him and not die, but live forever!
All mankind was cursed in Adam on account of his sin, locked out from Eden and kept away from the tree of life, lest he ‘eat, and live forever’:
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22–24, NKJV)
But now, we see that the terrible curse upon us in Adam is undone in Christ. For Christ is our Tree of Life, and He tenderly invites us to eat of Him and live forever. Christ says: ‘If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.’
This, then, is the Gospel: Christ’s body broken for the life of the world and His blood poured out for the remission of sins. The message of Scripture is not ‘Nothing happens till somebody starts dreaming’, but Christ crucified for our sins and raised for our justification. Repent, therefore, and believe this Good News.
S.D.G.
Ouch! How sad!! Thank you for speaking the truth in love!
Dan: this is a timely message. The teaching of scripture is clear: ‘vision’ is used both for the means of communication between God and man and also for the message itself. Numbers 12:6 says ‘If there be a prophet among you, I will make myself known to him in visions and speak unto him in a dream.’ Visions and dreams are therefore clearly God-ordained methods of communication. At times the conversation dries up, as in the time of Samuel when ‘the word of God was precious in those days, there was no open vision.’ (1 Sam 3: 1) I note that Isaiah calls his whole book ‘the vision of Isaiah, the son of Amoz’ (Isaiah 1: 1)
The problem with ‘dreaming’ in the sense of ‘blue-sky thinking’ is that if we consider our resulting thoughts to be from God they may be a false vision. cf Jeremiah 14: 14 and 23: 16 which includes ‘they speak a vision of their own heart’. We cannot either ignore that visions may be inspired by an evil spirit. Ezekiel saw ‘visions of God and Daniel ‘had understanding of all visions and dreams’. ((Daniel 1: 17) In Daniel dreams and visions are frequently linked, eg Daniel 7: 1. the Minor Prophets also had visions.
As you mentioned Acts 2: 16-18 you may guess where I would go: if God spoke through his prophets under the old dispensation, how much more should we expect him to speak under the new? Peter claims the prophesy of Joel to be the explanation of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. We cannot ignore that what his audience were witnessing was the disciples ‘speaking in tongues’. In the case of the Ephesian believers in Acts 19 we are told that when the Holy Spirit was given ‘they spoke in tongues and prophesied’. Paul also seems to suggest that tongues + interpretation = prophecy.
I agree with what you say about the value of prophesy as a ‘gift of the Holy Spirit’ for prophecy is given for ‘edification, exhortation and comfort’ and we certainly need those in our days!
There is much more I could say, but then it might be as long as the article.
one of the best articles I’ve ever read about this topic.
Mind if I link to it?
thanks,
FFW
Sure, go ahead – and thank you for stopping by!
Tonight was the first time I’ve ever listened to Rick Warren speak, aside from when he gave the invocation at President Obama’s inaugural ceremony. So far, I’ve listened to 42 minutes of Rick Warren’s video message and it has been painful on several levels. Firstly, I am deeply disheartened that John Piper chose him to be the keynote speaker. That alone lowers the bar in every direction, regardless of whether or not the masses have given their full endorsement.
Secondly, as a man standing (sitting) in the pulpit, he does not appear as one who comes in power. Now, Moses was not eloquent, neither was Paul. But they were called by God, and came in power, preaching God’s message.
1 Corinthians 4:20 says,
“For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.”
I did not discern any measure of authority as he spoke, but I saw a man trying very hard in the flesh to teach elementary concepts (I refrain from using the word truth, as he did not exegete the Scriptures) to an assembly of men who should be mature and fully trained to distinguish good from evil. His material is meatless. Keys and how-to’s do not a gospel make.
Lastly, and to my great sadness, he promotes law, expounding upon should’s and don’ts. He was also defensive by touting “felt needs” when he quoted “Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” and used the manipulative tool of self-deprecation in an effort to win hearers (something about how his mind is rebellious) And he boasted of his giving (“Kay and I give 91% of our income and live on 9%”). I could go on, but I won’t. It would take up too much space and it wouldn’t be life-giving, as there was nothing life-giving in his message.
You’re right, Daniel. There is no gospel in him, regardless of the trump card he is playing.
Thank you for the post, brother.
-E
Thanks for your comments, Elizabeth!
Whoa…careful reading of the scriptures are imperative if we are to be any closer to God’s intent for the Church and his people. This post really makes one think and alerts you to really focus on the Word beyond superficial appearance.
I did as you suggested and listened to Mark Burchelle’s sermon, Dream Killer. I am saddened by the false doctrine that seemed to be gladly received (by the sounds from the audience.)
Thank you for your message. We need to get back to the gospel. Paul preached Jesus and Him crucified. We rarely hear about the crucifixion, except maybe at Easter.
Oh, God, please help us. Open our eyes to deception and lies.
Amen to your prayer, Jean!
Lets not be too hasty in deciding whether or not to stop linking to Desiring God or John Piper.
Many are disappointed with this choice but I’d suggest going back in time to the buzz that surrounded this when it was first announced and you will get a fuller view, perhaps, of the reasoning behind this as well as other’s ideas of why this was good or why it was not.
But I for one am glad to have had Warren speak and I am no fan of his. I stand critical (still) of much he has done and found fault with some of what he said at the conference (which I attended). I always think it is best to hear from the person directly rather through the very “helpful” interpretations of some. First hand is better than second hand in my experience.
The original conference agenda was supposed to help clarify what exactly is going on with Warren doctrinally. Supposed to. But by now you know that he had to cancel last minute due to serious family emergencies. And so the question/answer session between Warren and Piper that most of us looked forward to the most was unable to occur.
No doubt as I have already seen, those who favor Warren will immediately defend him no matter what, perhaps not willing to consider if those who have issues with what he has said are right or not. And those who favor Piper will immediately defend him no matter what. Surely we can do better than that.
Perhaps we can be honest enough to say “I follow Christ” and consider the results of that proclamation when we evaluate our brothers in the Lord and remember that judging the motives of the heart belongs to our Lord alone. Evaluate, yes. Speak the truth in love, yes. Warn the sheep if necessary. But be quick to listen and slow to speak and make sure you know of what you speak when you do.
Blessings to all!
Welcome Dave, and thank you for your comments. I agree with much of what you say. My prevailing feeling about all of this is now a sense of profound sadness tinged with frustration and bafflement.
Having written the above post based upon the message notes posted on DG, I subsequently listened to the audio of Rick Warren’s message to ensure that I had not taken hold of the wrong end of the stick. Here’s what I wrote in an email immediately after:
And so, yes, it was particularly disappointing not to have the Q&A session. Rick Warren’s message was so dire that I thought it demanded urgent repudiation. It was all law, and that with an expectation that we have the ability to keep it!
There was nothing about Christ and what He has done for us. Oh, except one mention of Jesus having his arms outstretched on the cross, dripping blood to show He loved us. Yet this was not used to tell us that our sins were forgiven, but as an example of ‘conviction’ that we should follow. And so even Christ’s death on the cross was turned into a work of the law for us to do.
But I understand why the Q&A could not be. I hope and pray that RW’s family issues are resolved.
I know it will never happen, but here’s the discussion panel I’d now like to see convened: Rick Warren, John Piper, John MacArthur, Rod Rosenbladt, Bob DeWaay. And I’d make the whole thing a genuine debate on Warren’s sermon and theology. We’d all learn something from that.
I can’t tell you how disappointed I am in all of this. I have no axe to grind with DG, and I continue to have a great personal respect for John Piper, but I cannot fathom how he is now saying of Warren (based on that message, of all things!):
As I pointed out on Facebook and Twitter, one can quote reams of Scripture perfectly and yet not be Biblical. See Matthew 4.
And I think that John Piper can’t have been listening carefully enough to Rick Warren’s message, because Rick himself said:
Warren also said in the same context:
Well, that leaves me in despair then, because I haven’t figured out how to love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength. Nor how to love my neighbour as myself. So I am not ‘doing it’.
I wish Rick would let us in on the secret to keeping God’s Law – it is obviously something that St. Paul missed, too (Rom. 7). Me? I’m depending on the One who ‘did it’ for me, and whose perfect righteousness is now put to my account.
If you haven’t already, I’d encourage you to listen to Chris Rosebrough’s review of RW’s message:
Fighting for the Faith: Rick Warren’s Lecture at Desiring God Conference
I am sure that I will be thought by many to be a ‘hater’ and just one of those angry blogger types for writing the above. Yet I am not filled with hate, but rather a deep longing that those under RW’s care (and all those under the care of the thousands of pastors who follow his teaching) would hear the clear proclamation of repentance and the forgiveness of sins. The Law used lawfully to show people their sins. And the sweet balm of the Gospel: Christ crucified for sinners such as they, and raised that they might be declared righteous before a Holy God. Oh that they could have the comfort of knowing that their salvation depends not upon their following many rules (however expertly packaged), but solely upon the finished work of Christ upon the cross.
I pray too that Rick Warren’s eyes will be opened: all his rule keeping must be immensely tiring. How wonderful if he also could enter into our Saviour’s rest:
Hi Daniel,
I’ve already posted my comments on RW’s audio message earlier, but in response to your most recent blog post comment, I share your points and misgivings. I grieve over this, and there is not a shred of triumphalism to go with it.
It truly is a time of great conflict. As I see it, it is a conflict of kingdoms, as the kingdom of man (self-effort, Pelagianism) within the church rises up–even against the Lord of glory. It’s a time of treachery against the Lord, a time of power and exaltation in the flesh. I truly believe that God is allowing all these things to come about, so as to create a conflict of kingdoms, that His kingdom may prove as the enduring kingdom.
But it will not be as people think. The believer, the steady believer, will seem as though he has faltered, and the false and disingenuous will continue to rise up, claiming their rights (to ministry, followers, “success”).
But…in Him, we have no rights. Instead, He’s conferred on us a kingdom. Glory!
And those who have heard and obeyed will cling to Him all the more.
-E
Having written two books exposing the false teachings of Rick Warren, including documented case studies of churches in which he is a destroyer of the brethren, I am heartened that so many good brothers and sisters in Christ such as Ken Silva, Ingrid Schleuter, Paula Coyle, Chris Rosbrough, Daniel Neade, and Justin Edwards saw right through the sham that Rick Warren presented at Piper’s Desiring God Conference. But am sickened and sorely vexed that Piper and the Panel of sychophants including Piper himself, Burke Parson (Ligonier…R.C. Sproul) and Kevin Young (University Reformed Church), drunk with Warren’s kool-aid, would cheer on this wolf masquerading as a servant of righteousness, rendering themselves derelict watchmen on the wall…a reproach to all of the saints that Rick Warren’s PDL and Global Peace Plan ship’s propeller has left dismembered throughout the world. Are these men so naive that they don’t know that there are now at least twelve books by biblical scholars and lay persons who have authored books which have demolished Warren’s strongholds and principalities…the very thing Warren says we must be mindful of? Rick Warren’s talks about taking care of his own family, while he simultaneously destroys the family of God who are really Christ’s brothers and sisters, because they do the will of the Father! Rick Warren recently laid the foundation for the Poverty and Justice Bible which quotes the same CEV corrupt translation that Warren quoted at the Desiring God Conference published by Bible Society…a client of still another false teacher Arthur Miller’s SIMA International; see expose at: http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com/post/), while a host of saints that Warren calls “resisters” and “enemies of the 21st Century” and his co-conspirator Dan Southerland call Sanballats and Tobiahs…leaders from Hell” never receive any justice or due process of Biblical discipline. This is the height of hypocrisy.
As though it was not enough of an abomination and disobedience to Christ’s commands to invite Rick Warren in the first place to Desiring God Conference, Warren now boasts that HE is hosting this conference next year at his Saddleback Church and has just formed another unholy alliance with Peter Scazerro (http://www.emotionallyhealthy.org) who both Ken Silva (Apprising Ministries) and Deborah Dombrowksi (Lighthouse Trails) rightfully exposed on their websites. Ken Silva rightfully describes Scazerro as “the boldest reversal of the Reformation I’ve seen yet: PETER SCAZZERO BRINGING ROME HOME TO HIS CHURCH”, as Warren is also doing with all of the Roman Catholic Mystics he also promotes along with still another of his apostate partners Leonard Sweet. The three Reformed pastors on the Desiring God Panel: Piper, Burke, and DeYoung should all have known better then endorse Rick Warren for these reasons alone. Not a single word of compassion or mercy for all of Warren’s victims and shattered churches. Desiring God must begin with desiring the truth, which these people were oblivious to.
The entire Desiring God panel should be marked for now they have all become accomplices in accordance with this Scripture:
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Loren Davis, an God-fearing Evangelist, written up in a front page Wall Street Journal article, has sounded the alarm on His Holy Hill with how Rick Warren is destroying Africa on this broadcast interview on Southwest Radio’s Watchman on the Wall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUWWCaKoork
And now Rick Warren in his Clairvoyant Christianity has endorsed Dr. Laverne Adams’ “DRIVEN BY DESTINY 12 Secrets to Decode YOUR Future”
Foreword by Dr. Rick Warren. But this does not surprise me, after all , contrary to Jesus Christ’s own warning about predicting tomorrow, Warren guarantees his Global Peace Plan will succeed!
In this regard, I invite you to visit our new website which documents the legions of demons Warren promotes and proves that Rick Warren is a clear and present danger to the Body of Christ at:
http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com
I don’t understand why all of this is happening! I’m not speaking of Rick Warren and his false teachings for we are well aware that this world is destined to abound with the doctrines of demons. What confuses me is that many of my favorite Bible expositors have basically endorsed Rick Warren’s platform and his false teaching with their performance and silence concerning his lecture at DG 2010. Where is the outrage which should have followed such a poor and deceitful handling of our glorious Lord’s precious Word? This Word is what has been given to us for the salvation of our souls and I thought that the “distinguished” panel at this conference understood and believed this and were ready and willing to proclaim and defend its truths to the very end. They have believed and proclaimed the glorious gospel for so long; what is causing this extradorinary sell-out? I wish that I had some answers for these questions because I’m not sure what to do concerning the Bible teachers I used to love to listen to (John Piper, R.C. Sproul, Al Mohler,); I don’t think that I can listen to them with the same trusting ear anymore. Not that I put my trust in man’s word, but I think you know what I mean. I don’t feel that I can listen to them with any confidence anymore. These are truly strange and evil times we are living in right now and I thank God for the rock solid Word of Truth which He has given us to be the anchor of our souls!!!
It could have been none but Mr. RW to have said that. It’s not surprising.
That really is a good spin on things. It seems like in our culture we place prosperity as king and God’s commands as something to follow only after we have secured wealth.
Hi Alan,
I know where you’re coming from, but don’t forget II Cor. 12:12.
http://www.gotquestions.org/miraculous-gifts.html
Laurie K
I love this topic